JB Cup

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Re: JB Cup

Postby Lidflipper » Tue May 13, 2014 1:08 am

I don't think its worth it anymore. It's just too limited. I believe it's time for a real League. Matches through-out the year, the best teams/clubs make a playoff scenario. Should have home and away matches etc. Make it ultra inclusive rather than ultra exclusive. I appreciate the spirit the JB cup used to carry, but the cards are stacked for those already in it. TTown had to fight last year to keep their spot, I wonder if Q would have fared the same under last years circumstances.And hell ya we would have ganged up on them. Or conversly, if TTown was given special new last minute rule making abilities. K topics dead to me now.
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Re: JB Cup

Postby Peter » Tue May 13, 2014 7:00 am

Hey Lidflipper,

Here is a quote from an earlier post by Hank regarding the JB Cup:

The aim of the event is to create a competitive, pressure-packed environment that will raise the level of play for BC’s best players, helping them to successfully compete against other great players such as the top American pros. It is also meant to promote friendship, healthy rivalries, and good sportsmanship under pressure. Finally, it is a reward to those who work hard to better their games.

This is the key point of the tournament and in fact the name BC Club Championships was dropped in favor of the Jim Brown Cup to de-emphasize the 'club' part. This was in fact due to a valid point made by others that it should be open to all BC clubs, regardless of skill, if it is to be called a club championship. We have to restrict the number of teams otherwize we will need a week to run the tournament. We still need a way to qualify new teams (meaning one or more of the original teams will sit out)

That being said, the team=club spirit is still there, it is by far the best way to ensure ringers are not easily added to teams. It also creates great rivalries which definitely increase the competitive juices. I don't want to make this event a general event for the masses, someone else can create their own tournament to do that. Here is another quote from six years ago that shows the concept of what Jas and I wanted:

Any players, regardless of gender, age, race, religion, etc., can earn their way onto a team. The key word here is earn. We need something that will motivate people to practice and to become the best they can be. Will everyone make their team? Of course not. Being a limited event, there will naturally be disappointment for those who do not make it in. Disappointment can lead to two things: 1) Bitterness, or 2) Motivation. Bitterness seldom leads to improved play. Motivation on the other hand will lead to practice, which often leads to success. If you don’t believe me, just ask Dave Ross… Your chances of making your team will be a lot better if you work hard. I know that one day (since I am entering my 44th orbit it may be soon!) I will not make my own team, but I’ve already seen a couple of disc golf playoffs and know I’m in for another great treat as a fan…


This tournament was never meant to be all-inclusive as per the quote above, it was meant to be a means to elevate the play of golf in BC. It is obvious from your post that you enjoyed playing in the Challenge and it appears you feel bitter about not be able to gang up on Q. Lets pretend that you were able to, and that the other three teams managed to beat Q. Would the winning team have earned their place at the JB Cup? The obvious answer is no, instead they would have slid in "through the back door" without earning their place rightfully. How does this fit in with the stated goal of the JB Cup; to create a competitive, pressure-packed environment that will raise the level of play for BC’s best players?

I would respectfully disagree with your statement "Make it ultra inclusive rather than ultra exclusive", this is not the venue for that.

I do however, agree with the concept of a league with matches throughout the year. This event could be all inclusive and allow all teams to participate. Please correct me if I am wrong, but if I read your post correctly, it would seem that you are advocating a head to head match up with the best teams making a playoff scenario. You want that for the league event but not for the JB Cup? As some other posters on the tag board have said......hmmmm

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Re: JB Cup

Postby Lidflipper » Tue May 13, 2014 10:39 am

To Peter,

Yes, thats what Im talking about. League for everybody. Some Clubs are big some are growing. I think a lot more beginners would benifit from being on a team. Also to figure out the logistics of a league should be done with all the clubs that want to be involved ie. rules and subsequent changes would have to go through a process to allow input and voting by ALL teams to avoid contraversy and eliminate the possibilty of any hmmm's.
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Re: JB Cup

Postby Nev_Star » Tue May 13, 2014 11:53 am

The existing teams have worked on strategy and player development for years to even stand a chance to compete at the JB cup.
Now everyone is complaining they cant make it in after trying for a year.
Changes are inevitable and they have to be implemented somewhere and no one will ever be prepared for it.
You are more than welcome to start a league event, or something similar, I believe Craig Sheather had plans to do something similar to your idea while keeping the JB cup intact.

The fact that the JB cup was altered to include the relegation aspect is really cool, it adds dynamic to the JB cup event and opens up the possibilities of a different club making it in.
How that is not more "inclusive" I don't know... it isn't an event for the beginner/average disc golfer, but perhaps an event that will inspire those to grow to become skilled enough to make it.
Which I believe it has.
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Re: JB Cup

Postby chaddydaddy » Tue May 13, 2014 3:12 pm

I don't like the idea of removing the team being challenged from the equation... to have a one-on-one team battle - just because of the logistics of it all.

If you wanna have it all on one weekend, I think it makes sense to include all teams in the usual format that we've been playing... the new change to randomize who's playing who worked quite well and serves to eliminate purposeful stacking against any one team... I think it's an exciting element to have the challenged team in the mix.

To add more teams into the mix, it should be based on ability, not "you finished 3rd or 4th" and now since another couple new teams want in "sorry 'bout your luck"... why not just add in another tier like I mentioned in the other post? It allows for organic expansion (or reduction if only a few teams want to challenge in a given year). Only the bottom team should ever be on the chopping block in each 4 team event, and should only be removed if some other BETTER team deserves that spot.
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Re: JB Cup

Postby chaddydaddy » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:11 pm

Ok, so I've had pneumonia for the last 3 weeks and I've been a "bit" crabby.

I'd like to apologize to Wes and Hank for lashing out a bit there. I know you
both to be great representatives of our sport, and I always appreciate when
people are willing to step up and contribute. I'm sorry :)

The forum here is a better place to discuss JB stuff anyways.


It's my own fault for causing things to be taken out of context, so I want to
calmly debate the issue I was having, and maybe get a little clarity why you decided on
certain changes?

I understand that you created a committee with Team Captains representing the 4 (current)
JB Teams (Mundy, TT, QE, Islands), and that you now make rule change decisions together... right?

I also understand that this event is Hank's and Jas's baby, and that all decisions
on rules deserve to be theirs to make... so adding committee members showed trust and
a willingness to keep growing the event.

But naturally you 4 have a bias towards your teams remaining in JB competition.

And naturally Team Burnaby (and possibly other challenge teams??) has a bias towards
wanting into the JB Cup.

So we butt heads, and every single person who's commented on the tag board so far
has been from one of the 4 Teams, or a challenge Team.

So yeah, everyone wants to be in the JB Cup ;) I get it.

But does it currently represent the top 32 players in the Province? (since that
seems to be your mandate)

I think the competitiveness of this year's JB Challenge event was proof that
there are more than a few top 32's who won't be in the JB Cup this month (and
that's not including the Interior players - especially Kamloops and Kelowna -
who will likely enter the scene next year as new Teams).

Where I have a problem understanding fairness is that you're allowing people who played their hearts out
for a challenge Team the option of joining one of the 4 JB teams this same year (which would be
a permanent thing once they actually do, is that correct?).

That would only serve to make the best teams better, and weaken future competition
from Challenge Teams. [demonstrated bias]

You're basically forcing the top 32 players to choose an existing allegiance
(TT, QE, Islands, Mundy) instead of where they'd naturally be (one of the other
4 teams, or a team not currently listed there... like a Challenge team say)... and
because it's such an AMAZING event - most of them DO, myself included up until this
year.

But what if we don't like those 4 flavours?

And what are the odds of basically 8 top 32 players suddenly rising up all on the
same Challenge Team to supplant the losing Team's supposed top 32's?? ...Ever?

But to even further tilt the scale, now the bottom JB team (the team "on the chopping
block") doesn't even have to play until Sunday in the Challenge match now, and
only has 1 single team to deal with.

Can you imagine if a team that won the Ryder Cup in golf had to go out there and play
a freshly rested rival team the very next day??

Who would have the advantage do you suppose?

Can you imagine playing 3 full 18 hole rounds at say Jericho in a day, and then
feeling fresh as a daisy the next day to do it all over again?

I've watched more than a couple people (from my own team!) go to the hospital
before the end of a JB weekend because they were exhausted in some form or other.

Anyone think they'd shoot better on day 2 personally? or even about the same?

Rob Eimers played all 3 for us and basically wanted to collapse afterwards... you
more fit than him ya think?

So what's the deal? Do you need these advantages to win and feel good about yourselves?

Does the Team on the chopping block deserve some kind of reward for their shitty
play that got them there in the first place?

"we're the best" huh huh ...of the worst!

What is it you want here? Your teams in it forever? Or the chance for brave
new worlds?

Somehow find a way to reseed or make things level and let's see how it all plays out.

That's all I want. I have no problem if you're a better team than us.

Just don't be dicks in order to do so. Cherrypicking doesn't involve skill.
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Re: JB Cup

Postby Peter » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:34 am

Chad, you wrote:
Ok, so I've had pneumonia for the last 3 weeks and I've been a "bit" crabby.

I'd like to apologize to Wes and Hank for lashing out a bit there. I know you
both to be great representatives of our sport, and I always appreciate when
people are willing to step up and contribute. I'm sorry :)


Good on you Chad...but then you blew it when you wrote:
Just don't be dicks in order to do so.


But on to business. You have raised some issues that are worthy of discussion:

You wrote:
But does it currently represent the top 32 players in the Province? (since that
seems to be your mandate)


Here is the DG rated top 32 in BC( with more than eight rounds played), and the teams they play for,(I eliminated Elijah Isaac as he is from Alberta):

Dave Ross (Mundy)
Craig Sheather (Mundy)
Dan Laitsch (Mundy)
Hector Diakow (T-Town)
Dave Brown (T-Town)
Darryl Dyson (Mundy)
Matt MacDonald (Islands)
Steve Chrichton (Mundy)
Neville Collett (Mundy)
Glen Oliviero (T-Town)
Joah Chlopan (Islands)
Chris Gauthier (Mundy)
Peter Jersak (Q)
Kris Klimko (T-Town)
Ryan Hebert (Q)
Chris Hartmann
Rob Abel (Mundy)
Matt Dixon (Islands)
Geoff McNamara (Islands)
Eric Vachon
Miguel Guizar
Dave Stropky (Q)
Jay Samms (Islands)
Derek Wintermans
Mike Graff (Q)
Matt Lum
Mike Majuri
John Silvester (T-Town)
Alex Fraser
Jay Regitnig
Ed Fogarty (Q)

Missing from this list, (but definitely top 32 players), are:
Mike McMillan (Q)
Jas Bul (Q)
Glen Whitlock (Islands)
Braeden Simmonds (Islands)

The players who are in bold type are not currently associated with any of the current JB Cup teams. If you add the four names listed above, (and drop the bottom four), then there are only 6 players who are not playing in the JB Cup who deserve to be. Of these, some have chosen to go to their home club, (Eric), and some are on teams that are so deep that they may or may not be playing on this years team, (Mike Majuri?). So...you are correct in stating that not all top 32 players are included, but almost all are...

You wrote:
Where I have a problem understanding fairness is that you're allowing people who played their hearts out
for a challenge Team the option of joining one of the 4 JB teams this same year (which would be
a permanent thing once they actually do, is that correct?).

It is not permanent, if a player does not actually play in a given year they become a free agent, able to play for any team.

You wrote:
And what are the odds of basically 8 top 32 players suddenly rising up all on the
same Challenge Team to supplant the losing Team's supposed top 32's?? ...Ever?

With the free agent rule in effect, there is a strong possibility, that a challenge team will be assembled from the "best of the rest". This team would be formidable as chances are there will be some top players available.

You wrote:
Can you imagine playing 3 full 18 hole rounds at say Jericho in a day, and then
feeling fresh as a daisy the next day to do it all over again?
Does the Team on the chopping block deserve some kind of reward for their shitty
play that got them there in the first place?

I concede that this is tough for the challenge teams, perhaps this can be discussed by the rules committee...
I would suggest that the challenge teams should have a completely separate tourney to decide who faces the fourth place team on a separate, later weekend. I personally, would like to see this at the JB Cup also.

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